Is SEOMoz only good for "ideas"?
-
Perhaps I've learned too much about the technical aspects of SEO, but nowhere have I found scientific studies backing up any claims made here, or a useful answer to a discussion I recently started.
Maybe it doesn't exist. I do enjoy Whiteboard Friday's. They're fantastic for new ideas. This site is great. But I take it there are no proper studies conducted that examine SEO, rather just the usual spin of "belief from authority".
No?
-
Exactly. And so, would it not be greatly beneficial knowledge to all of us to know if and when a limit is reached where this strategy is no longer effective?
For example, there are many PR8 sites with literally hundreds of PR6 pages that allow dofollow commenting. We can alter anchor text and the deeplink to gain links from these PR6 pages. The question is when does this strategy become ineffective? Let's say our site has 100k pages. Should we spend our time getting a link from every available PR6 page from the same domain? Or is there a diminishing value?
Having some sort of a study that's tried and proven to show if a persistent benefit exists, and when it wears off, would be invaluable to practical SEO, and the results of a study such as this are highly unlikely to change within a year.
Surely you'd like to see something like this too?
I do understand the need to keep SEO in-line with Matt Cutt's objectives, however the reality is that Matt Cutts objectives and what works are two different things. There would be no such thing as off-site SEO at all if Google worked the way it meant to. The thing is, is that it doesn't, and that is why off-site SEO exists.
Instead of people giving hogwash answers, we should be demanding these sorts of useful studies. That is just my opinion anyway.
-
OK... for your question... maybe a little bit more if all links go to the same URL. However, if the links go to different URLs you might get a lot more.
-
And when Schema.org is fully implemented, and in turn integrated into ranking factors, it's going to go through the roof as far as factors go.
-
I wasn't asking to pin point anything to decimal places. I was only after peoples view on whether its "a little bit more" or "probably nothing" etc. That way I can see who here actually knows anything about SEO.
-
Oh - and let's not forget that unless we have the exact same data set as any search engine, we move even further away from the mark of accepted scientific best practices methodology.
This is really important. In the past SEOs could count all of the onpage factors and count their links and count their anchor text. Now as Google starts using things like social data, analytics data from Google.com and other information that SEOs can not count or even see - that is when the ability to reverse engineer begins to disappear - and google becomes less likely to be manipulated.
-
I like how EGOL summed it up in regard to the fact that search engines won't reveal their methods.
They claim hundreds of factors, yet when those are cross-related, that leads to exponential sub-factors (and thus why Google and Bing like to tout 10,000 factors behind the hundreds).
We live in a correlation industry. Any true scientific analysis to reverse engineer the actual factors is by nature going to very likely miss something, and it could be quite significant in how much the results are actually false flag.
Where it gets more complex is that no two situations (in any truly competitive landscape) are exactly alike, and thus the need to replicate for verification is an even more elusive task.
Then add in that hundreds of changes occur to search algorithms throughout the year (some small, some big), and now we're talking about a barrier to true scientific evaluation.
Oh - and let's not forget that unless we have the exact same data set as any search engine, we move even further away from the mark of accepted scientific best practices methodology.
On a final note, the amount of time, computing power and analysis required in most situations, is more likely cost-prohibitive since the results of such effort can not be recouped. So that leaves it to an entity that has the financial, technical, and academic willingness to take on such a task without expectation of compensation.
Rand gets hammered all the time for referring to Moz's process with the tag line "correlation is not causation", even though we work in a correlation industry.
-
Hi Steven,
While I don't feel it's necessary to defend SEOmoz, or SEO for that matter, it is impossible to know exactly what do to implement perfect SEO techniques and rank in the top spot for each industry.
However, SEOmoz is one of the few places I have watched webinars that collect vertical data, and process the statistics to made heads and tails of it. I do remember reading a Google Best Practices Guide from 2010 that did something similar, but not as well as SEOmoz.
The more I read and learn from this site, the more I realize that SEO is not abut tricking Google and other search engines. It is about relying on the best practices to create high quality, relevant websites that Google will appreciate. I continue to believe that if SEOers stay consistent in their practices, Google will end up changing their algorithms to suit SEOmoz's standards. Search engines will be chasing our sites, and our clients sites based on the excellent product we are helping produce.
SEO can be an extremely frustrating if you are looking for black and white answers. I find the best practices approach to be much less frustrating, and easier to manage in regards to expectations and results.
Edit
I also wanted to mention that I wish people would have more ideas to consider in reference to best practices and techniques. This is how SEO will evolve, and rarely do people have a chance to be in on the ground floor with cool stuff like this.
-
Can you tell me the diminishing value of a sitewide link vs a single homepage link for example? And how is it you know the answer to this?
Nobody is going to tell you that a sitewide link is worth 2.76788756 times the value of a homepage link.
The answer isn't that simple. Sites come in different sizes, they have different linkages, they have different navigation structures and they have different numbers of links hitting homepages and internal pages. Maybe it even matters if these links are in the footer, the top navigation or some other location.
There is a word that is used when people try to reverse engineer something that is really complex..... that is fuzzy logic. I think that this term has huge application in SEO.
But my personal opinion is when we deal with questions of fuzzy logic, we make the most effective use of our time when we accept answers such as "a little bit more"..... "probably nothing".... and "maybe a little less". Then we simply apply them, and move on rather than trying to get into proving theorems and attempting to calculate out to five decimal points.
-
Hi Ryan,
You're quite right. The site does offer some useful tools and interviews. In fact for that reason alone I will be retaining my membership. I wasn't really after a secret handshake, but more sharing of analysis data.
-
Steven, it sounds like you joined to learn the secret handshake. If that is the case then, from your point of view, you will be disappointed.
EGOL and Marcus both shared excellent perspectives on the SEOmoz site's offerings. You have also looked around the site. Based on your replies I think you have examined the site and have not missed any major components.
What SEOmoz does offer members is:
-
Tools: Site Explorer, MOZbar and other tools to examine websites. Yes, there are similar tools out there and also some of these tools can be improved. I would like to see all of SEOmoz's tools improved to be the best in the industry. They aren't there yet.
-
Original interviews: you mentioned Whiteboard Fridays. The recent interview with Duane Forrester from Bing offered fantastic insight into upcoming changes at Bing. Being part of a network which talks to industry leaders and asks the right questions is very rewarding.
-
Active community: if you do get stuck or otherwise have a question, SEOmoz offers a place you can go to for help. From what I have seen, other communities are not very active nor do they offer the quality of feedback these forums provide.
The idea seems to be centered around providing a place for those interested in SEO the tools, information and discussion area to do their job better. If that is not what you are looking for, then I would suggest you simply enjoy your free month then try something else.
-
-
Marcus,
I appreciate the good natured will of your post, and I thank you for that. However as I stated to Egol, I am not by any means new to SEO. Please don't let my small post count here deceive you.
The links you provided regarding "asking the experts" is what is known in science as an "appeal to authority", which has no relevance whatsoever to evidence. Just because some prominent scientists, or SEO's, give their opinion about something, even if it is in the vast majority, does not constitute evidence. Those, myself included, who know more than many of the names mentioned within those lists, care not for opinions, but replicatable tests. This is how any knowledge is truly understood.
I do very much respect the ideas presented here, and the community, and in fact have learned some non-technical SEO related things. I especially applaud the Whiteboard Friday section. However I'm not really after trends, or patterns, but rather a discussion regarding specific questions, such as the one brought up in a previous discussion I created.
Can you tell me the diminishing value of a sitewide link vs a single homepage link for example? And how is it you know the answer to this? That is what I want studies demonstrating, so we can analyze this in detail and work out finer points of the algorithm which, despite common theory, doesn't change as much as everyone believes.
-
Egol I agree with you wholeheartedly, though I'm not as much of a newbie as you seem to infer.
The information is indeed kept secret to maintain a competitive advantage, though I thought this site may have revealed some of its own studies. My primary reason for joining here wasn't to learn as much as it was to compare analysis of various SEO algorithms, and I cannot seem to do that here.
One thing I'm sure you're aware given the dynamic, changing nature of SEO is that an understanding of even some temporary aspect, be it for only a few months until it is changed, can bring in huge profits.
Not all fields of SEO are like this however. Some aspects of SEO which haven't changed for years are not even discussed, such as the topic raised in a previous discussion I created. We can study these aspects with near the same level of detail we can study the electron configuration of atoms, it simply requires observation and deduction. This is what I was hoping for.
-
Hey Steven
Your kidding right? The "usual spin"?
It's hard to know exactly what you are looking for here but if there are any studies about SEO then it's SEOMoz and their partners from within the industry that are doing them.
Here are a few that just jump to mind:
1. http://www.seomoz.org/article/search-ranking-factors
The ranking factors article takes so much into consideration. A panel of 130 or so experts and correlation-based analysis from the vast amount of data gathered through the link scape index and other means.
2. http://www.davidmihm.com/local-search-ranking-factors.shtml
This is an article looking at the myriad local search ranking factors. Again it uses a panel and a whole bunch of data to best give an overview of local search ranking factors.
3. http://www.distilled.net/blog/
If you want more general data and mathematical analysis of search then the guys at distilled publish some great information.
4. SEOMoz Tools
You want data? Then the tools here will give you that. Granted, it's not perfect and it won't SEO your site for you but it will give you some metrics to work with.
The blog at SEO book pulls no punches and is often a great place to go for some cutting analysis of what is right and wrong in search.
But, psst, come here, wan't to know the real secret?
Hard work - that's it, plain and simple. SEO is a closed box. The engines don't publish their algorithms and even if they did give us a comprehensive overview of everything covering all areas of search it would likely be out of date before we have finished reading it.
I kind of feel your pain, you want exact answers, specific things that you can do to succeed but SEO just does not work like that. There are way to many variables and for every industry, every site, every country, every city things can be a little different.
If you want to 'examine seo' then you need to do it from your perspective. If you want analysis it has to be done within the context of whatever you are trying to achieve. There are plenty of great SEO's on this board and if you want some help understanding what you can do to rank better then post some more details and I am sure you will get some help, I will certainly take a look.
I hope that helps a little, even if it was not exactly what you may have been looking for.
Marcus
-
Search engines such as Google don't reveal how they rank websites and they modify their methods continuously. One of their most important goals is to avoid manipulation.
As a result nobody knows exactly how google ranks websites. So SEOs must have a mind that is comfortable dealing with a changing uncertainty.
A few people do scientific studies on how rankings work but a lot of that information is kept secret to maintain a competitive advantage - but it has a limited value over time because search engines change their methods.
In my opinion there are four good sources of information....
-
Basic search optimization guides such as the Beginner's Guide to SEO
-
Surveys of web professionals such as the Search Engine Ranking Factors.
-
Forums such as this one where people ask questions and share ideas.
-
Personal records that SEOs keep about what changes they made to their website and the results that occur.
The bottom line is you will rarely know EXACTLY what to do. But you must draw information from what you get from 1,2,3 and 4 to place your best bet.
The primary caution is.... don't be suckered into accepting the answer that you "want to hear" because usually the "most difficult to pull off" is the one that works best.
-
Browse Questions
Explore more categories
-
Moz Tools
Chat with the community about the Moz tools.
-
SEO Tactics
Discuss the SEO process with fellow marketers
-
Community
Discuss industry events, jobs, and news!
-
Digital Marketing
Chat about tactics outside of SEO
-
Research & Trends
Dive into research and trends in the search industry.
-
Support
Connect on product support and feature requests.
Related Questions
-
Disavowing the "right" bad backlinks
Hello, From july to november (this year), I gained 110.000 backlinks. Considering that I'm having trouble ranking well for any keyword in my niche (a niche that I was ranking #1 for several keywords and now I'm losing), I'm starting to believe that negative seo is affecting me. I already read several articles about negative seo, some telling this is a myth, others telling that negative SEO is alive and kicking... My site is about health and fitness in brazilian-portuguese language, and there's polish/chinese/english with warez/viagra/others drugs pointing to my domain and a massive links in comments with blogs without comment approval. Considering that all these new backlinks are not on my language and are clearly irrelevant, can I disavow them without fear of affecting my SEO even more ? Everytime you see someone talking about the disavow tool, is always the same warning: "cautiong when disavowing a link, you can hurt you site even more, removing a link that - in some way - was helping you". Any help or guidelines if I can remove this links safely would be greatly appreciated. Thank you and sorry for my english (it's not my native language) 5ZDjUcK.jpg
Technical SEO | | broncobr0 -
Rel Canonical errors after seomoz crawling
Hi to all, I can not find which are the errors in my web pages with the tag cannonical ref. I have to many errors over 500 after seomoz crawling my domain and I don't know how to fix it. I share my URL for root page: http://www.vour.gr My rel canonical tag for this page is: http://www.vour.gr"/> Can anyone help me why i get error for this page? Many thanks.
Technical SEO | | edreamis0 -
While SEOMoz currently can tell us the number of linking c-blocks, can SEOMoz tell us what the specific c-blocks are?
I know it is important to have a diverse set of c-blocks, but I don't know how it is possible to have a diverse set if I can't find out what the c-blocks are in the first place. Also, is there a standard for domain linking c-blocks? For instance, I'm not sure if a certain amount is considered "average" or "above-average."
Technical SEO | | Todd_Kendrick0 -
"nofollow pages" or "duplicate content"?
We have a huge site with lots of geographical-pages in this structure: domain.com/country/resort/hotel domain.com/country/resort/hotel/facts domain.com/country/resort/hotel/images domain.com/country/resort/hotel/excursions domain.com/country/resort/hotel/maps domain.com/country/resort/hotel/car-rental Problem is that the text on ie. /excursions is often exactly the same on .../alcudia/hotel-sea-club/excursion and .../alcudia/hotel-beach-club/excursion The two hotels offer the same excursions, and the intro text on the pages are the exact same throughout the entire site. This is also a problem on the /images and /car-rental pages. I think in most cases the only difference on these pages is the Title, description and H1. These pages do not attract a lot of visits through search-engines. But to avoid them being flagged as duplicate content (we have more than 4000 of these pages - /excursions, /maps, /car-rental, /images), do i add a nofollow-tag to these, do i block them in robots.txt or should i just leave them and live with them being flagged as duplicate content? Im waiting for our web-team to add a function to insert a geographical-name in the text, so i could add ie #HOTELNAME# in the text and thereby avoiding the duplicate text. Right now we have intros like: When you visit the hotel ... instead of: When you visit Alcudia Sea Club But untill the web-team has fixed these GEO-tags, what should i do? What would you do and why?
Technical SEO | | alsvik0 -
DoubleClick Floodlight tags & SEOMoz Chrome App
Hi guys Newbie here looking for some advice from you SEO gurus. I've installed SEOMoz's chrome app and, visiting my site's homepage, when I open click the SEOMoz icon and it opens the dialogue window, i get analytics for a doubleclick url. Now, my homepage does have a doubleclick tag on it, but it's waay down in the page source. Is there something I should be doing here to stop this happening? Surely the app should find my site's URL over the DoubleClick tag? Looking at the guidelines for DoubleClick, it says that the Floodlight tags need to be placed between the tags. They're sitting outside these tags on my homepage. Do you think this might be causing the issue? I'm sure this is going to be an embarrassing lesson in SEO 101, but I'm keen to learn and to fix this if possible. Thanks!
Technical SEO | | zeegirl0 -
How to block "print" pages from indexing
I have a fairly large FAQ section and every article has a "print" button. Unfortunately, this is creating a page for every article which is muddying up the index - especially on my own site using Google Custom Search. Can you recommend a way to block this from happening? Example Article: http://www.knottyboy.com/lore/idx.php/11/183/Maintenance-of-Mature-Locks-6-months-/article/How-do-I-get-sand-out-of-my-dreads.html Example "Print" page: http://www.knottyboy.com/lore/article.php?id=052&action=print
Technical SEO | | dreadmichael0 -
Any good ideas on how to quickly rank a new site for a new product laucnh?
Hi, I'm thinking of examples like the wii u - when it was announced all wii u sites were new. what ways could one get an edge quickly when competing against other sites without a great deal of authority on this 'new' keyword? obvious ones are social bookmarking, what else could easily be used to quickly (<24hrs) at least help a bit in non competitive kws?
Technical SEO | | dmn020 -
How do I use the Robots.txt "disallow" command properly for folders I don't want indexed?
Today's sitemap webinar made me think about the disallow feature, seems opposite of sitemaps, but it also seems both are kind of ignored in varying ways by the engines. I don't need help semantically, I got that part. I just can't seem to find a contemporary answer about what should be blocked using the robots.txt file. For example, I have folders containing site comps for clients that I really don't want showing up in the SERPS. Is it better to not have these folders on the domain at all? There are also security issues I've heard of that make sense, simply look at a site's robots file to see what they are hiding. It makes it easier to hunt for files when they know the directory the files are contained in. Do I concern myself with this? Another example is a folder I have for my xml sitemap generator. I imagine google isn't going to try to index this or count it as content, so do I need to add folders like this to the disallow list?
Technical SEO | | SpringMountain0